Sloping / humped runways

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G-RJWA
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Sloping / humped runways

Post by G-RJWA » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:17 pm

Second problem of the day. Shetland has a number of small islands with rough strips for the BN-2B Islander scheduled flights. Practically none of them are flat, usually quite humped in the middle (Out Skerries I'm working on, you cant see the Islander at one end from the other, and its 380m long...)

Trying to flatten a runway while using Promesh UK (astounding addon..) produces plateaus and valleys around the runway length. I dont care if it doesnt become a recognised runway in FSX, I just want it landable while reasonably following reality and the terrain around it.

I assume I'm in for a lot of poly work (which I'm not so good at), but I hoped someone would have some suggestions as to how to go about it.

Many thanks again.

Ryan

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luisfeliztirado
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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by luisfeliztirado » Mon Nov 16, 2009 10:54 pm

Sorry, Ryan, all runways in FS airports must be completely flat. No way around that.

However, you can simply ignore that constraint and place a very high resolution image in the desired location without specifically creating an FS airport (the so-called AFCADs, AFX, or more correctly APX files.)

The custom ground textures will follow the terrain, so if you also use a high resolution altitude mesh, then you will have the image of the runway and it will "hump" or slope as you want. This will also prevent the display of plateaus and valleys, as you mention, since you are not "flattening" anything, thereby not disturbing the altitude mesh in the least.

Best regards.
Luis

Wally-Bob
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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by Wally-Bob » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:05 pm

Luis,

Utilizing the above technique or with photo textures, is it possible to eliminate the rolling on terrain effect of tossing rocks and dirt etc. from the aircraft's wheels?

Wally-Bob

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luisfeliztirado
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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by luisfeliztirado » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:33 pm

Hello Wally-Bob,

If you want sloped runways, then I think that they can only be on ground that does not contain an APX file with airport layouts. In that case, you will get the flying dirt effect, unless you remove that effect entry from each airplane cfg file.

Best regards.
Luis

G-RJWA
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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by G-RJWA » Sun Nov 22, 2009 3:03 pm

Yes I'm not too bothered about FSX recognising it as a 'real' airport, but as a resident of the isle I'm modelling, I'm all too used to gravel and dirt being thrown up off the runway - its not tarmac, just loose chippings, so I could live with that too.

I have seen it done for Courchevel and other strips in the alps with good results, and even with promesh's 5m mesh, the runway isnt right, and half the time the aircraft sinks a metre or 2 beneath it.

Its not a big deal, I was just hoping it was something I could do with sloping polygons etc.

Wally-Bob
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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by Wally-Bob » Mon Nov 23, 2009 2:58 pm

Thanks for the reply Luis,

Mods to the cfg would work, but is not the preferred method. I am looking for a way to put the hard suface effect into the bgl. I have not tried "carpeting" the runway with roadways or some other techique where the visuals would be overlayed by photo textures. I was hoping for a poly solution containing the hard surface effect. Is there a multi file/priority layer approach? What is possible?

Best regards,
Wally-bob

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luisfeliztirado
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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by luisfeliztirado » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:26 pm

A very interesting problem and one I have never really considered. Perhaps you could try changing the land class assignment, if that controls the type of effect displayed, in addition to the airport ground layers.

For example, if the flying dirt effeect only appears on when the aircraft travels over fields, then perhaps there will be no dirt effect over cement. Or perhaps there is. However, if not, then it might be worthwhile creating a land class file that places cement land class under the photo-real ground textures and seeing if that has some influence.

As I say, I have never tried it so there are no guarantees.

Best regards.
Luis

Wally-Bob
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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by Wally-Bob » Sun Nov 29, 2009 1:38 am

Luis,

I have tried cement land class poly, no luck. I have not tried cement land class tiles (QMID 15), but I would expect the same result. I have tried airport runways without airport boundaries under the photo/elevation mesh. Interesting here, you cannot see them but upon taxiing over it, you fall through the mesh and can look up at it. (Crash detection off) No tossing dirt or increased rolling drag as expected. The mesh and photo are now invisible, but you can see all the objects (buildings, vehicles, etc) floating above at mesh elevation and the normal look of photo/mesh terrain below your elevation when looking towards the horizon. If you taxi off, you are instantly transported back up on top of the mesh. Neat effect, keeping it in mind for some future use, maybe some imaginary mission adventure. There was something like this years ago (with FS 4, I think) at the volcano in Hawaii if you set a particular local world time and date ...

So, perhaps a multi-segmented object such as a bridge surface just under the mesh. (0.1m) I just have the impression that with all the developer talent out there, if sloping runways were possible they would be done by now. It just can't be as easy as I describe, or can it? I haven't tried do to a lack of free time with my FSX computer which is unavailable when I am traveling for my job which is what I do most of the time. Luis, give it a shot real quick and see if any of these ideas work. I'll try when I can if you can't.

If it does work, then there's hope for some type of dissection of properties to apply to a new terrain flatten poly which would include hard surface properties for SBuilderX 3.14. Also a hard surface photo mask that works in a similar fashion as a water mask would be fantastic, but that would be inside of resample.exe

Wally-Bob

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luisfeliztirado
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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by luisfeliztirado » Sun Nov 29, 2009 11:31 am

Interesting comments, Wally-Bob. Congratulations, it is good to see people thinking on work-arounds.

As it happens, I probably have even less free time than you, so I count on you to give it a try and see if you can come up with something. Don't give up, as many things that have been claimed impossible have been done by people like you.

Best regards.
Luis

Wally-Bob
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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by Wally-Bob » Wed Dec 02, 2009 12:19 am

Luis,

Reading from Fsdeveloper (posts are 2005 -> 2007) sloping runways have been tried and were successful in FS9 & FSX by using hardened surfaces on GMAX models & helo pad sections. There have even been airport vehicle roadway tunnels under runways modeled. So, my solutions for sloping runways are not unique nor the first. (Actually this makes me feel better, not being the first.) There has been no mention of carpeting the photo-runway with roads or using bridge surfaces. I’ll try these first.

The only remaining hurdle is AI traffic refuses to follow anything but the APX elevation and will travel below/through/above the GMAX model hardened surface. Autos will follow a sloped road surface and boats will follow a sloped water poly, so there is hope for someone smarter than I to figure out what needs to be tweaked within the AI airplane mdl to allow this. I’m not a big AI fan, so I do not intend to pursue this aspect.

If any other aspiring developers or just tinkering hobbyist such as me are reading this post, share some results, just speak up. After all it will benefit our entire hobby community.

Best regards,

Wally-Bob

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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by Wally-Bob » Sat Jun 12, 2010 8:42 pm

Just an update on the subject, I have been successful creating sloping runways albeit utilizing GMax and FSDS. SBuilder still remains the tool of choice for placement of the sloping runway as well as other associated scenery refinements with the projects. I plan the first freeware release soon.

Wally-Bob

Wally-Bob
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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by Wally-Bob » Fri Mar 11, 2011 7:00 pm

Current Real World Private Airport in New Jersey omitted by MS in FSX is now available as a Sloping Runway, a touchdown tire squealing, smoking rubber - that kind of hardened asphalt surfaced sloping runway.

It’s released, and yea I know – but soon is a relative term.

Over at Avsim, Search for: “Wally-Bob” in Flight Simulator X – Scenery
JY43_Hill_Top_v1_w-b.zip

Wally-Bob

old grey dog
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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by old grey dog » Fri May 06, 2011 11:51 am

This thread seems to have been going on for some time and I a relatively new toe FSX (very new to tinkering with the environment myself). I was first fired to do some non-flat runway experimentaion when I came across the default Lukla and Courchevelle airports. These are both obviously FLAT and in the case of Lukla even in the wrong place.

I had some success with Lukla adapting a technique in the "Terrain Design for Flight SImulator" tutorial where the problem of depicting a roadway winding down a slope was modelled by using an Airport_Background_Flatten polygon with the elevation of the points round the polygon edited to match the underlying terrain mesh.

I did this for the location of the Lukla runway. My method of finding the ground levels was somewhat crude and time consuming. I placed an aircraft at the various polygon points around the surface perimeter and noted the altitude (is there a better way?? someone tell me please).

Anyway, it worked. I had a piece of ground that matched the terrain. Because Lukla is now an asphalt surface I positioned a length of road of a suitable width and material. I also placed a vestigial FSX runway on the flat bit of the runway at the top of the slope so that there is a hat to hang the airport ID on.

I have to say that I ran out of steam in developing this further when I found that I could buy a fully developed Lukla from Aerosoft along with an excellent Twin Otter to land on it. (A cop out I know).

Wally-Bob
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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by Wally-Bob » Sat May 14, 2011 6:30 pm

Old Grey Dog,

You have pretty much covered the process but the roadway will simulate the effects of dirt upon landing and taxiing and you may find yourself dodging 4 wheeled vehicular traffic. The runway with it's hardened effects of asphalt needs to follow the terrain which is what should be laid down instead of the roadway. This technique will be revealed in the next few weeks in a tutorial I am writing available at a few of the popular FSX download sites. SBuilder (Thanks Luis !!!) is an essential tool needed for the construction.

wally-bob

Wally-Bob
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Re: Sloping / humped runways

Post by Wally-Bob » Fri Aug 12, 2011 7:35 pm

The Tutorial is released, Avsim, Flightsim, SOH.

The intent of releasing a method for creating sloping runways to the world is to propagate a plethora of freeware offerings to benefit all enthusiasts of the hobby.

May all your runways be sloping and all your landings greased.

Wally-Bob

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